Boys to Men Being Gay and Masculine
Boys to Men is an interview series featuring conversations between author Thomas Page McBee and some of our favorite men about learning — and unlearning — masculinity.
Greyson Chance, the 21-year-old YouTube star from Oklahoma, is probably still best known for his stunning sixth-grade music festival performance of Lady Gaga’s “Paparazzi” that went viral in 2010. If you haven’t seen it, it’s worth watching: Chance is a precocious and unselfconscious piano man, and the handheld recording juxtaposes his passion against the performative boredom of his peers, in full view behind him.
The video racked up more than 65 million views, which landed Chance an appearance on the Ellen show and a recording contract with her label. He has since released two albums, including this year’s Portraits. The music video for the lead single features three love stories told across gender and sexuality. Chance himself came out as gay in 2017 in an Instagram post. We talked about reimagining coming out as a masculine rite-of-passage, and how trans people got him to think more deeply about gender identity.
Thomas Page McBee: When did you first realize that you were a man?
Greyson Chance: Probably when I came out to my friends and family. I think I was 16. It felt like I had seen older adult males in my life, like my dad and my grandpa and my older brother, go through consequential moments where they had to be a bit more courageous than they are in their day-to-day, and that felt like stepping into manhood. I really felt confident in who I was as a man after I came out.
TPM: Has your idea of what being a man means changed since you were 16?
GC: It’s constantly evolving. I'm starting to realize as I'm getting older that being a man and being firm in your masculinity is so far removed from an exterior vision of it. It has nothing to do with the way you dress or the way you talk, or how you identify.
I think, for me, it really goes back to principles. It means taking care of the people around you, sticking up for your friends, sticking up for your family, being brave, not stepping away from a challenge.
TPM: What questions did you have about gender, especially masculinity, as a young person? And how did you find the answers to those questions?
GC: I think I had been taught that if I liked boys, that was emasculating. My biggest question was, why did I feel a certain way towards people that are like me, and why does that affect my masculinity? I didn’t understand.
And I'll be completely honest, in terms of questions about gender, it wasn't until I became friends with people in the trans community and actually had real conversations with them that I began to understand gender in a much, much bigger way. So I think I'm still asking questions too, you know? I'm still curious.
TPM: What's a question you've asked recently about gender?
GC: Because I fit into one letter in this [LGBT] community, and because I'm also a white male, I think the biggest question that I have is: how can I help? I think we need to be listening more.
TPM: As I'm sure you know, not being "girly or gay" is one of the main ways we as a culture define manhood for boys. Were you called gay before you came out? Did you ever call anyone else gay as an insult?
GC: I was born and raised in Oklahoma but in a pretty affluent suburb outside of Oklahoma City. A lot of people are like, "Oh, well, in Oklahoma it has to be extra horrible, right?" And my response is always that I don't think I experienced any more homophobia than any other kid growing up in an American white suburb. I used to get called "Gayson" on the playground. I was constantly called a “faggot.”
I played soccer when I was a kid. I didn't fully recognize that I was gay, but I knew that when people were calling me these things, it was a problem, and that it was going to affect my positioning within the social fabric of my school. So I would use my athletic ability as sort of a defense mechanism to show people and say, "You’re calling me a faggot on the playground and that's implying I'm a sissy. Well, let's go play sports and I'll show you how good I am on the field." That may be just distracted people and also kind of just held onto my own view of masculinity, at that time, when I was that young.
TPM: What's the most harmful thing you were taught about being a man that you’ve had to unlearn?
GC: You’re constantly taught that you have to be tough, you have been unbreakable. What about protective masculinity? What about pulling your friend aside and saying, "Hey, are you good? Are you okay?" To me, that's what makes a good man: Someone who is willing to throw a fist at the bar when they need to, but maybe not as the first reaction. I think it's just about redefining terms like “tough” and “strong.”
TPM: And do you attach those things to having a male body or to masculinity broadly? Like for example, could a woman have those same qualities?
GC: Yeah, I mean absolutely. I know women that are a lot more tough than I am and who are a lot better at executing these traits. I don't necessarily think it's exclusive. When we're talking about about, "Okay, what does it mean to be a good man?" Maybe it is a broader question of, "What does it mean to be a good f*cking human being," you know? Maybe that's what we need to be teaching more and less of, "Okay, here's what ‘masculine’ means. Here's what ‘feminine’ means." Let's just talk about how you protect your friends, how you protect your family, and how you be a good person.
TPM: Is there something you did as a boy because of male socialization that you now regret doing?
GC: If I'm being incredibly honest, in my first experiences with just meeting trans people, I said a lot of naïve things that I really wish I could take back. But at the same time, they were honest questions that I just really didn't know, you know? Now I just feel like the biggest idiot in the world. I think it took me a long time to recognize the connection between who I was and how my letter fit into LGBTQ+. I wish I would have been a bit wiser when I was younger, as we all probably do.
TPM: I watched the video of you performing Paparazzi as a kid and thinking about how, in our culture, that kind of vulnerability is really not rewarded at all in boys. You obviously were rewarded in certain ways, but did you have to deal with a backlash?
GC: I think, had I gone up there and danced and sang for the Gaga song, I think the reaction from the men and the boys in the room would have been a lot different. But here in Oklahoma, people really respect musicianship, you know? We like country music, we like people with guitars and with banjos who can f*cking get out and play an instrument and actually sing. And so I don't remember experiencing any reaction, minus a lot of adult males and boys in my school going, "It's really cool that you did that."
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